花，花

严世农

a20015161 发表于 2012-1-6 00:24

                               
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耳热，支持，感谢，路过   顺祝Happy New Year，新春大吉，以及情人节快乐！

历时半载，终于把路老盼来了。看到路老在那边上了个小碗儿，不真诚，不真诚，月老的故事也不写了，糊弄我们

锦桐

入门新人来学习:)

"metal work made in China by native craftsman, of silver and silver gilt, using traditional Chinese techniques, but briefly following Western forms, for export to the West during the period of trading voyages chiefly by sail" （Chinese Export Silver 1785-1885, page 4）
"gold or silver wrought in China by native craftsmen using their own traditional techniques, more or less according to non-Chinese specifications, for export, for foreign residents, and at least primarily for non-Chinese use” （ The Chait Collection of CES, page 9）
以上严老提供观点

This silver, while known as Chinese Export Silver (CES), was not really made for export (as were the porcelains, ivories, fine silks, teas and furniture)
以上神老提供观点

矛盾重点：CES之生产是否真为出口？

神老资料后半段解释得很清楚，为何并不是真的用于出口:
The majority of pieces that come on the market today….. the largest stream of this silver came to light in the pantries and cupboards of descendants of American missionaries, business and military personnel, and wealthy tourists.  Dating from the 1870s to the 1930s…. Americans who had visited or spent time in the more cosmopolitan foreign concessions….. soon learned that Chinese silversmiths’ work, given the relatively low cost of labor combined with the high quality of workmanship, was one of the best bargains in China. As a result, those who could afford it seldom returned home without acquiring some of this silver. Many examples still exist in California, Washington, and Oregon, where a considerable number of these so-called “old China hands” eventually settled in….（Dr. H.A. Crosby Forbes 2002）
当年美国传教士、商人、军职人员、富有的旅行家，其后代的橱柜、食品柜，是目前市场上广为人知的这批（CES）银器最主要的来源。追溯至1870-1930年代，那些游历过或到过更多的遍及全球的特许贸易点的美国人，很快就发现中国银匠的产品，就其高品质的工艺而言，人工成本却相当低廉，是最赚钱的生意之一。所以，凡是能够买到这种银器的人，绝不会空手回国。时至今日，在加利福尼亚、华盛顿、俄勒冈，还有很多这类最终定居于当地的“中国通”。(译文粗陋各位将就吧，鄙人的翻译也出差没影儿了~~~)

因为如果是用于出口，那么应该普通的美国家庭就有；但是，CES主要是先辈到过中国的家庭才有，无论是为传教、贸易，还是为侵略、旅游——总之是他们当年自己在中国买的~

严世农

discovery 发表于 2012-1-3 14:02

                               
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精彩的讨论

虽然卖不起，但看看不收钱吧，老土还是比较有眼福的。
今天真巧，居然又看到一套120 oz带盘咖啡壶龙纹5件套，还是“钜记”+“SILVER" +"C.J.Co."！
火龙珠挺特别，龙须和别的贴片不同，是日式立体的，更特别的是，有的”J"款反打，弄不好过几年就象发行的错票一样，物以希为缺了。

严世农

锦桐 发表于 2012-1-6 09:36

                               
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新人来学习

"metal work made in China by native craftsman, of silver and silver gilt, using trad ...

你们太让老土惨愧了，有了你们这些藏而不露的高手，老土还要翻译干嘛呀？！
不过老土的翻译也不能解雇掉，他平是是帮我修电脑的。

严世农

锦桐 发表于 2012-1-6 09:36

                               
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入门新人来学习

"metal work made in China by native craftsman, of silver and silver gilt, using  ...

翻译过来看了僮姥的贴子，说"古德，外瑞古德"，
quote"not really made for export", originally, but in fact, they were finally exported, in different ways, to the west. So there is no conflict on the definition of CES.

apsaras

严世农 发表于 2012-1-6 10:25

                               
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翻译过来看了僮姥的贴子，说"古德，外瑞古德"，
quote"not really made for export", originally,  ...

严老师的意思是不是说这些银器最终也随着它们的西方买家、使用者回到家乡，离开了原产地中国（香港），所以也归纳为 'export' ?

严世农

apsaras 发表于 2012-1-6 10:59

                               
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严老师的意思是不是说这些银器最终也随着它们的西方买家、使用者回到家乡，离开了原产地中国（香港），所 ...

说到对中过外销银的定义，是一件很谨慎的事。当年Dr. Forbes的书中，将CES的出品国，制作人，原材料，工艺方法，成品式样，出口目的地，时间和途径都用一句简明的话作了阐述。10年后的1985年，随着新的器物浮出水面，原著者之一都觉的这个定义要作修正，主要集中在下面几点：
1，把silver and  silvergilt“改成了”gold and silver“是发现了确有出口金器；
2，用”non-chinese specification"替代了“western forms"是因为出口器的风格，除了西式，还有波斯（persian)和阿拉伯（arabian)风格。
3，把”for export to west"修改成“for non-chinese use"，这其中包括了for export和for foreign residents，象是西人参加的体育竞赛，高升离职，而中国人送给中国人婚丧嫁娶的不算。
4，把时间定位于船运贸易期这句”during the period of trading voyages chiefly by sail"去掉，一是因为这段时期何时结束并不明确，二是这样的定义太狭窄，中银的出口在这之后很长时间都有。

严世农

写书是一件严谨的事，路老在西洋就提到他被齐东方齐老吓得打了退堂鼓。出书，钱是小事，大师兄二师兄每月逛银楼，打赏也不止七万八万，我是说，他们进出拍场，每件的买家佣金也不止这些钱。问题是，书有多重。

西人研究外销银有50年了，虽说有片面，有不足，但好的东西还是在他们手里，他们还是权威，咱们不能瞎定义，要对前人的东西既有传承，又有发扬。首先要看他们写了神马，神马地方还待完善补充，别犯老土刚刚犯过的错误。神秘兮兮整来两款，以为是达芬奇密码，推论来推论去，虽然说结果也对，但答案早就在陈老手中了，尽作些个无用功。不知别人写了神马，重复写，要是还不如西人写的全面，写的深刻，写得精准, 不写也罢，简单翻译一下原著也不错。

apsaras

西人对CES是如何定义? 又找来 H.A. Crosby Forbes 于2002年一些相关的发表。希望不会打乱严老的分析。不肯定在这以后 Dr. Forbes 有没有其它关于CES的发表。 我只知道他在  Chinese Export Silver – The Chan Collection 2005  写过一篇比较短的文章。既然严老和陈老都有私人翻译，网里也高手林立，我就原文奉上算了！

In the United States, we can think of Chinese export silver as an important part of this enlarged silver universe whose rediscovery involved the confluence of four successive “streams”.

The first stream, dating from 1784-1785 to about 1850, came from major ports along the Atlantic coast that engaged in the China trade. As late as the 1960s, descendants of the ship captains, supercargoes, and China trade merchants who had originally acquired the pieces still owned many examples…..

As collectors’ knowledge of the field spread, existence of a larger second stream became evident. The historical background of this stream was the opening of Hong Kong and Shanghai as a result of treaties following China’s defeat in the first and second Opium Wars (1839-1842, 1857-1860). An increase in the number of foreign trading houses with an escalating number of foreign merchants – often accompanied by wives and offspring – meant significantly greater silver production…..

A third stream – more of a trickle, really – resulted from the establishment of foreign legations in Beijing after 1860. The diplomatic community required silver not only for legations but also for personal use in individual private houses……

The fourth, and largest, stream of this silver came to light in the pantries and cupboards of descendants of American missionaries, business and military personnel, and wealthy tourists. Dating from the 1870s to the 1930s, this later Treaty Port silver makes uninhibited use of traditional Chinese motifs, most notably dragons. American who had visited or spent time in the more cosmopolitan foreign concessions such as Shanghai soon learned that Chinese silversmiths’ work, given the relatively low cost of labor combined with high quality of workmanship, was one of the best bargains in China. As a result, those who could afford it seldom returned home without acquiring some of this silver. Many examples still exist in California, Washington, and Oregon, where a considerable number of these so-called “old China hands” eventually settled in the late-nineteenth and early-twentieth centuries. This fourth stream comprises the majority of pieces that come on the market today…..

(Citations: Silver Magazine March/April 2002 page 25 & 26 by Dr. H.A. Crosby Forbes）

末末馨

一堆英文落下来砸Ｓ人~看来还得重新学习英语